Writing, managing varied projects + some encouraging writing advice (Interview with Amy Doak)

Today’s post is an interview with the lovely Amy Doak.

It is my absolute pleasure to share this interview with writer Amy Doak. Amy has created a career and life around writing - she has a long backlist of non-fiction works and is now publicly delving into fiction-territory (stay on the lookout for her first novel soon!). Amy and I ‘met’ over on Instagram right around the time she was in the process of publishing her latest book, Listing Life - an interactive book that encourages the reader to create introspective lists to do with all aspects of life. Amy sent me a copy and I was so excited to read the book and make my own lists - it was a fun and enlightening process and one that forced me to think about certain things that I either hadn’t thought about before, or hadn’t considered in a long time.

In this interview, Amy lets us step into her writing world. She has provided such generous, detailed answers - it really is a treat! Read on to discover many pearls of wisdom and some truly comforting and encouraging advice for those starting out on their own writing journey.

A little background + becoming a writer

You've had quite a diverse career so far - from marketing, magazine publishing, consulting, all while writing at the same time - what led you to decide to hone-in on writing?

Writing was all I ever wanted to do - for as long as I can remember. I was an early reader and writer (I even got in trouble for it when I was in prep, can you believe that?!) and I was always making up stories.

However, I was told from a young age that writing was a hobby, not a career. That led me to choosing study that offered ‘sort-of-writing’. I did a business degree at uni with a double major in computing and marketing. I figured I would eventually get into PR and at least I could write press releases and meet interesting people (that was not true) and then in my 20s I did a professional writing and editing diploma with the hope of moving out of TV and radio (where I was working at the time) and into magazines or newspapers. Again, with the hope of being paid to tell stories.

In hindsight, every choice I’ve made has been an attempt to lead me back to storytelling and writing.

What are the different types of writing you do?

I work as a freelance writer - the most regular clients I have include local government (blog posts, brochures, website copy); real estate (house listings) and travel agents (copy for packages). I also write magazine articles (this isn’t as lucrative as it once was though, which is a shame because it’s great work) and I coach creatives and small business owners.

What were some of the challenges you faced in transitioning to focusing on writing full time? How did you overcome them?

I still have moments where I think I should stop playing at writer and ‘go and get a real job’! Working in a creative field AND working as a freelancer requires a lot of self belief and that’s something I have to remind myself on the down days. I also have to remind myself of all the things I didn’t like about 9-5 work, and about the flexibility and freedom that come with this life. Every now and then I will have a quiet week and I panic and think ‘what am I doing?!’ but without fail I get plenty of work the following week and wish that I’d actually enjoyed the downtime. It’s mental gymnastics for sure.

What was your first writing job?

A small article on a local business for an insert in the local paper. I did a lot of work for free or not much money in the early days - I could afford to because I was working another job - and that built me a resume and a reputation that then allowed me to charge.

What's your favourite thing about being a writer?

I am a very curious person. I find people and life in general absolutely fascinating and I love to learn. I also love the challenge of taking the things I learn and sharing them in a way that makes it easy for others to understand. When writing fiction, I love the puzzle that comes with story, and being able to take an idea and turn it into a tangible thing that can be shared. The whole process brings me great joy actually.

Time and project management + writing process

How do you stay motivated?

I’ve got to admit, this is hard. Especially when you have those moments of doubting yourself. I have a couple of lovely writerly friends that I message when I’m thinking of throwing it all in. I also have my ‘why’ written down at my desk and I revisit that whenever I’m having one of those ‘what’s the point’ times.

How do you approach a huge project like writing a book?

I think everyone does it so differently but my process is to break it down into smaller pieces (chapters, scenes, ideas) to ensure it flows and it makes sense, and then essentially fill in the gaps. This gives me the freedom to make changes along the way, but also provides a framework to keep me on track.

How do you manage all the different aspects of your career - non-fiction writing, fiction writing, freelance/ghostwriting, consulting?

I think I am just used to it now. I definitely have busy freelance days and that often means my own stuff doesn’t happen because I just have no words left in my brain! I’ve learnt to accept that writing is something that takes time, but if you keep chipping away at it, you will get there in the end.

What does a typical day look like for you?

I have no typical day! The last year and a half has been especially atypical (thanks pandemic). Although, I can’t complain because I sort of love that each day brings something new. If I’m working on a freelance job, it might mean a meeting or visit with the client to get details. Other days I find myself home all day with piles of notes that need to be put in some sort of order. My deadlines with non-fiction work (freelance or ghostwriting) are always tight, so they tend to take precedence and that means I have to also work around the client’s schedule. I always try to allow some reading time, and if I don’t walk the dog each day we both go crazy. In amongst that, family comes first. So that’s getting kids sorted with school work, meals, and everything else that goes with being a mum. I used to dream about having The Life Of A Writer, where I locked myself away for the whole day with nothing to do but work on my manuscript. However, the more time I spend working as a writer, the more I realise that would be terribly boring and lonely.

Do you have any particular writing rituals?

Not really. I find that I write anywhere (desk, couch, bed, kitchen bench, floor) and by any means (notepad, laptop, ipad or phone!) - whatever works in the moment. One thing I do have sorted when writing at home is my tea! I have a favourite pottery cup and a favourite loose leaf tea and each time I sit down to read or write, I will make a fresh cup. The process seems to clear my head and relax me.

Amy Doak's dog on chair in front of bookshelves.jpg

You’ve mentioned on Instagram that you do a lot of ‘writing in the margins’ - what does that look like? How do you make that process work?

Anyone with small children will appreciate the challenges that come with never ending interruptions and the feeling that your time is not your own. I would often get so frustrated that every time I sat down to write, there would be someone needing something, or asking a question, or crying!

I remember watching an interview with Victoria Schwab and she talked about how writing time for her is actually broken up into ‘thinking time’ and ‘dictation’. This was a game changer for me, because my brain works this way too. What I was trying to do now was what I once did pre-kids: having my thinking time and my typing time all in one session. Once I figured this out, I realised that I could be thinking of the work when the kids were at the park, or we were walking the dog, or I was cooking tea (sometimes that meant making notes on paper or my phone) and then, when I got a spare 10 minutes, I’d rush to type it. It’s amazing how quickly the words add up just from 10 minutes here and there. I’ve recently started a 20-minutes-a-day challenge on Instagram and that’s been a wonderful reminder about how much you can accomplish when you percolate your ideas all day and then smash out some words when you get a moment.

Latest book: Listing Life

What prompted you to write Listing Life?

It was an accident actually! Along with my freelance work, I also do some creative coaching. Working with other writers or artists, or small business owners about how they can make their passions work for them. I was asking questions in early sessions and it became apparent that a lot of people never take the time to ask themselves if what they’re doing is actually what they want to do (or just what they think they should be doing). Far too many people are unnecessarily miserable because they are living everyone else’s life. People also tend to make the mistake by thinking that in order to be happy, they need to do a complete 180.

Often, you don’t need a new career, or a new partner, or to move to another city, or have another baby...sometimes it’s tiny little shifts that can let the joy in and make a huge difference.

What prompted you to share Listing Life beyond the group of people you originally had in mind?

I started putting together worksheets for my clients to complete before we met. A few worksheets turned into a few more, and then I decided to put them all together in a workbook. I had a few people edit it for me and each one of them told me I needed to make it available for everyone, not just my clients. So I did!

How has introspective list-making prompted positive changes in your life?

I think it’s something I’ve always done without realising it. In my 20s, I was big on goal setting. I don’t do this now, because as I get older I see that the smaller things are much more enjoyable than the big things (and much easier to accomplish!) So having a hot bath with a great book is far more rewarding for me than trying to get a new career! I worked in a very corporate world in my 20s and there were a lot of conferences and training sessions that tackled elements of this ‘inner work’. I’m also mad on self-help and philosophy books, and so much of that is learning about yourself and others. I’ve collected things along the way that helped me and I’ve used them to help others.

Amy holding her latest book, Listing Life. — Amy holding her latest book, *Listing Life.*

Do you think you'll expand upon the concept behind Listing Life and create workshops?

Quite a few people have requested this, and every time I think about what that would look like, my brain hurts. Online short courses? One big long weekend retreat? Mini sessions of an hour or half an hour for certain ideas? And then there’s packaging that and marketing it and promoting it and gosh...I don’t know! I love the idea, but I feel like different people would need a different workshop and I am just not sure how to start!

Have you made the lists multiple times and gotten different results?

[Side note from Simone: I actually think it would be really interesting to come back and go through the book again and again - perhaps every few years or in times of transition...I feel like some of my answers would remain the same, but some would probably drastically change!)]

Yes! Absolutely. In fact, one of my top 3 goals is different now than it was when I wrote the book. We change all the time and what works for us one day will be different on another. Things change with circumstance too. As my kids get older; while we’ve had the ups and downs of lockdowns and restrictions; as my interests evolve. I think it’s really important to revisit your thoughts - especially during the periods in life when you’re feeling a little lost. Sometimes you need the reminder, and sometimes you need the adjustment.

Advice

What's the best piece of writing advice you've ever heard?

If you’re struggling to start, pretend you’re having a cuppa with the dumbest person you love! Haha. There’s reasoning behind this, I promise. By writing in a conversational manner, just how you might speak, it’s a really easy way to find your voice. We’ve all got a friend or family member who is a little slower on the uptake (the last one to get the joke, the one who whispers loudly at the movies ‘Who is that again?’). You love them dearly but you know when you tell them a story there needs to be context, and you have to take your time explaining. Also, because you love them, you will share the story with enthusiasm and kindness. By keeping this person in mind when you write, it is amazing the clarity and good intentions it provides.

What advice would you give someone wanting to move from 'writing for fun' or 'writing on the side' to a full time writing career?

Take it slow. A writing career is pretty much synonymous with the word patience! It’s also a career that you can enjoy well past retirement age, so honestly, don’t try to hustle and hurry it along. Submit work to publications that suit your style, offer your services to friends and family and build up a folio of the sort of work you want to do (and be paid for!) Bit by bit you will start forming connections and one day you will be asked to write something by someone who doesn’t know you (they just know your work) and that’s when you start charging.

The other big thing I would say is this: call yourself a writer. Now. Don’t wait until you’ve published something, or someone else tells you that you’re a writer. When someone says ‘what do you do?’, you reply with ‘I’m a xxxx AND a writer.’ They’ll say, ‘Oh, that’s interesting, what do you write?’ and you tell them what you’d like to be writing more of. Soon you will be known amongst your circle as the writer, however if people don’t know that’s what you do, they sure won’t pay you to do it.

What's next?

You've written quite a number of non-fiction books, but you've mentioned some fiction books that are in the works. What are the main differences in how you approach writing a non-fiction book vs a fiction book?

I’m definitely more structured and more of a planner with non-fiction (and I think that’s why fiction is more fun for me!)

With non-fiction: I have a purpose, an end in mind and a really clear outline. With fiction: I tend to know the start, one or two scenes in the middle and a big scene at the end...beyond that I’m sort of driving in the fog and can only see the next little bit in front of me. Non-fiction is a much faster process (at least, it is for me) and I tend to do all the research and then smash it out. I can’t hurry fiction and that’s challenging for me. However, I am aware that I am new to novel writing and perhaps I simply need a lot more practice.

What's next for you in your writing career?

I’d love to write more fiction - I’ve always been quite closeted with that (even though I enjoy it so much more) and I think I’m finally grown up enough to start sharing it. I’ve completed my first novel and it’s an action/adventure/mystery/thriller with a little side of romantic comedy and a kick-ass female lead. It’s currently out for submission (so fingers and toes crossed!) and in the meantime I’ve started on a second.

Final words

I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Amy and I hope you did too. There is a lot in there; I think this is a post I will myself be coming back to again and again. If you would like to follow Amy’s writing career, you can head to her author website, or find her on Instagram.

Today’s post was an interview with Amy Doak

Amy Doak is a writer, publisher, coach and the author of multiple books - her latest is Listing Life, helping people find joy in their life through introspective list making. Amy’s writing and photography has been published in magazines, books and websites around the world. Amy now helps people write and publish books, whilst also consulting in marketing, publishing and media and continuing to work on her own projects.

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